C system CBA convertor, 64/106 58/120
#1
Hi,

I'm in the market for a C system chromatic button accordion with convertor bass, with a 64-note range in the right hand and 58-note range in the left hand.

Thanks!
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#2
This may prove to be a challenge, especially in the USA.
New should not be too hard, but $$$$$... and used will be hard to find. Any idea how new or old you are looking for and at what budget? Then our american forum members may be able to give you some pointers.
Also, be aware that maintenance on such instruments can be a nightmare because everything is an extremely tight fit. (I speak from experience as I play and maintain my bayan (64 notes rh, 58 notes lh).
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#3
<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="54459" time="1516112425" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=54459 time=1516112425 user_id=605 Wrote:(I speak from experience as I play and maintain my bayan (64 notes rh, 58 notes lh).
I'd call it a draw (62 notes rh, 60 notes lh) except that I think you have more reeds to the notes than I have (4 rh, 2 lh).

Joking aside, I concur with Paul that converters will be harder to get used than other accordions because not just fewer people play them but those who do often don't have more than one and would rather sell off standard bass accordions in order to keep more options.

Things are worse actually because you are looking for the largest and most versatile kind of accordion, and one tends to sell those last. In addition, you are looking for a C system instrument with a size that is pretty much only available with bayans (and bayan-themed super-expensive Western models). Those are almost always custom-built and you'll pry them out of the cold dead hands of their owners. Namely: you'll rather be successful (if at all) in classified ads or Ebay rather than a communication medium for living accordionists.

If a non-converter is an option at all, I have a C system Morino Artiste VID for sale which has 62 notes in the right hand (but starting at A2 rather than what bayans start with. E2?) but a standard bass.

Of course I know that there are good reasons for wanting a converter: that's why I am keeping mine (actually not a converter but one with an additional free bass manual, but close enough). And you'll probably need all your money when you get the opportunity to get one. But I thought I'd mention it anyway.

Good luck!
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#4
<QUOTE author="Geronimo" post_id="54461" time="1516116067" user_id="2623"><s>
Geronimo post_id=54461 time=1516116067 user_id=2623 Wrote:...
Things are worse actually because you are looking for the largest and most versatile kind of accordion, and one tends to sell those last. In addition, you are looking for a C system instrument with a size that is pretty much only available with bayans (and bayan-themed super-expensive Western models). Those are almost always custom-built and you'll pry them out of the cold dead hands of their owners. Namely: you'll rather be successful (if at all) in classified ads or Ebay rather than a communication medium for living accordionists.
...

Things may not be so bad. I have a convertor instrument (Bugari 540/ARS/C) that is small, not too heavy, and has 52 notes rh and 49 lh as well as the larger (AKKO) bayan. I foresee that maybe 10 years from now I may have physical difficulties in handling the large and heavy bayan so I do see myself moving to the smaller Bugari in due time (and become willing to sell the AKKO). I also have a Morino Artiste XS which is even heavier and already gets little use. I keep it for the rare occasion that I need that special sound, but again this is an instrument that in due time I could give up because of my old age.

So people with such a large professional instrument may at some point in time be willing to sell it and only keep a smaller instrument, but you may wonder what state of repair such an instrument will be by the time the player is willing to give it up.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#5
Thanks for the replies.

I currently play a Giulietti Super T piano accordion with convertor bass. Some of the music I am playing requires a greater right hand range and so I'm looking to switch to a CBA. Indeed, I've gotten the sense that finding such an instrument in my budget and from the US will be a challenge and possibly take some time.
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#6
<QUOTE author="Dogue" post_id="54475" time="1516159894" user_id="2685"><s>
Dogue post_id=54475 time=1516159894 user_id=2685 Wrote:Thanks for the replies.

I currently play a Giulietti Super T piano accordion with convertor bass. Some of the music I am playing requires a greater right hand range and so I'm looking to switch to a CBA. Indeed, I've gotten the sense that finding such an instrument in my budget and from the US will be a challenge and possibly take some time.

The switch to CBA may be tougher than you anticipate... but if you are already fluent on the convertor bass that may help as the RH will just be the same (actually a mirror image). I'm 10 years into this process and it's going well, but my "prima vista" playing is still not at the level it was with PA.
The PA keyboard range can be limiting and so is the range of notes you can reach with one hand (easily 2 octaves on CBA ;-)... but there are many professional players who do play classical music and typical bayan compositions and who do get by with the typical 45-key range of a PA.
That said... I love having the extra notes and actually do make use of them on my bayan. The largest range I have seen on a PA is 49 notes (D to D) which is a step up from 41 keys on a regular PA and even a step from the 45 keys on most convertor PA's.
Knowing how difficult your search may be could be helped by knowing your budget. The search is much more difficult with a $5.000 budget than with a $15.000 budget... (and probably impossible with a budget way under $5k)
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#7
I saw this one <URL url="https://m.ebay.de/itm/Akkordeon-Victoria-Cassotto-Convertor-Bayan/183015948505?hash=item2a9c99c0d9:g:k6MAAOSwm~daWifp"><LINK_TEXT text="https://m.ebay.de/itm/Akkordeon-Victori ... Swm~daWifp">https://m.ebay.de/itm/Akkordeon-Victoria-Cassotto-Convertor-Bayan/183015948505?hash=item2a9c99c0d9:g:k6MAAOSwm~daWifp</LINK_TEXT></URL> i dont know if its your criteria or budget but i thought ill share it Smile
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#8
Thanks. I'd say $5000 is OK, $10,000 may or may not be, and $15,000 is not.

The Victoria looks promising, although the seller says that the right hand range is 61 notes.
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#9
<QUOTE author="Dogue" post_id="54514" time="1516296455" user_id="2685"><s>
Dogue post_id=54514 time=1516296455 user_id=2685 Wrote:Thanks. I'd say $5000 is OK, $10,000 may or may not be, and $15,000 is not.

The Victoria looks promising, although the seller says that the right hand range is 61 notes.

The keyboard itself has keys for 64 notes (E to G).
Given your budget this rules out any new instrument. (You might look into an AKKO "super" which may or may not be within $10.000 depending on import tax levels which I do not know.) Patience is key to finding a good buy. I have seen a large Bugari bayan for sale for 5.000 euro (but not now). The Victoria is offered by what looks like a professional seller and that explains the higher price. Finding one within the USA will certainly be a problem.
You should consider what you want, especially in the left hand, because there are different systems: some let you choose between L, M and LM throughout the range, some will be LM in the lowest octave and selectable above that, some (especially bayans) are LM in the lowest octave and LL for higher notes...
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#10
Hi Dogue, I know of a good but recently serviced professional Paolo Soprani that didn't sell (ebay) last December @£2200; four sets of reeds (LMMH) double cassotto (LM); 87RH (13 voices over 5 octaves)/127LH (5 voice stradella, two voice free bass); but it is large (14Kg). Are you still looking?
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#11
<QUOTE author="PiginClover" post_id="54543" time="1516376763" user_id="2698"><s>
PiginClover post_id=54543 time=1516376763 user_id=2698 Wrote:Hi Dogue, I know of a good but recently serviced professional Paolo Soprani that didn't sell (ebay) last December @£2200; four sets of reeds (LMMH) double cassotto (LM); 87RH (13 voices over 5 octaves)/127LH (5 voice stradella, two voice free bass); but it is large (14Kg). Are you still looking?

If you mean 87 buttons on the right hand that is not enough for the instrument to have 64 notes. These typically have 106 keys. (64 notes means 21 notes on row 1, 22 on row 2, 21 notes on row 3, and then perhaps another 21 on rows 4 and 5 for a total of 106 keys.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#12
<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="54545" time="1516389200" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=54545 time=1516389200 user_id=605 Wrote:<QUOTE author="PiginClover" post_id="54543" time="1516376763" user_id="2698"><s>
PiginClover post_id=54543 time=1516376763 user_id=2698 Wrote:Hi Dogue, I know of a good but recently serviced professional Paolo Soprani that didn't sell (ebay) last December @£2200; four sets of reeds (LMMH) double cassotto (LM); 87RH (13 voices over 5 octaves)/127LH (5 voice stradella, two voice free bass); but it is large (14Kg). Are you still looking?

If you mean 87 buttons on the right hand that is not enough for the instrument to have 64 notes. These typically have 106 keys.
Unless it is a four-row. For "13 voices over 5 octaves" to make sense, it should not include octaves only reached by registration (then a 37-key LMH would be "over 5 octaves" already). So it's conceivable this might be a four-row one: my own one has 62 notes and, uh, 82 keys?

And 14kg is pretty much minimum for double cassotto instruments in the 5 octaves/5 octaves class.
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#13
<QUOTE author="Geronimo" post_id="54548" time="1516391454" user_id="2623"><s>
Geronimo post_id=54548 time=1516391454 user_id=2623 Wrote:<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="54545" time="1516389200" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=54545 time=1516389200 user_id=605 Wrote:...
If you mean 87 buttons on the right hand that is not enough for the instrument to have 64 notes. These typically have 106 keys.
Unless it is a four-row. For "13 voices over 5 octaves" to make sense, it should not include octaves only reached by registration (then a 37-key LMH would be "over 5 octaves" already). So it's conceivable this might be a four-row one: my own one has 62 notes and, uh, 82 keys?

And 14kg is pretty much minimum for double cassotto instruments in the 5 octaves/5 octaves class.

You are right, the OP did not specify there should be 5 rows... The 87 key Paolo Soprani is no longer listed (as far as I can tell).
The 14kg is actually not that unreasonable as a listed weight. My AKKO bayan is listed as 13.9 kg and there are other accordions with 64 notes 4 voices, double cassotto, convertor 58 notes melody bass, etc. for a similar weight.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#14
<QUOTE author="PiginClover" post_id="54543" time="1516376763" user_id="2698"><s>
PiginClover post_id=54543 time=1516376763 user_id=2698 Wrote:Hi Dogue, I know of a good but recently serviced professional Paolo Soprani that didn't sell (ebay) last December @£2200; four sets of reeds (LMMH) double cassotto (LM); 87RH (13 voices over 5 octaves)/127LH (5 voice stradella, two voice free bass); but it is large (14Kg). Are you still looking?
Thanks. I am still looking although am curious if this does indeed have 64 notes in the right hand, as the 87-button Paolo Sopranis that I've seen are 5-rows and hence have a smaller range.
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#15
<QUOTE author="Dogue" post_id="54677" time="1516821024" user_id="2685"><s>
Dogue post_id=54677 time=1516821024 user_id=2685 Wrote:<QUOTE author="PiginClover" post_id="54543" time="1516376763" user_id="2698"><s>
PiginClover post_id=54543 time=1516376763 user_id=2698 Wrote:Hi Dogue, I know of a good but recently serviced professional Paolo Soprani that didn't sell (ebay) last December @£2200; four sets of reeds (LMMH) double cassotto (LM); 87RH (13 voices over 5 octaves)/127LH (5 voice stradella, two voice free bass); but it is large (14Kg). Are you still looking?
Thanks. I am still looking although am curious if this does indeed have 64 notes in the right hand, as the 87-button Paolo Sopranis that I've seen are 4-rows and hence have a smaller range.
A 4-row 87-button CBA would be organized something like 22+22+22+21 and thus would have more than 64 notes if all buttons were live. On my Morinos, all buttons <I><s>are</I> live (including a button only on the fourth row!) with the exception of a C♯1 in the free bass (which starts at D1 instead of the usual E1), on my Excelsior, there are dead buttons at both ends of the range.

So I suspect you are confusing this with a 5-row 87-button (17+18+17+18+17) which is slightly more than 4 octaves.
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#16
Yes, thanks – I meant all 87-button Paolo Sopranis I've seen are 5-row – have edited post.
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#17
Hello! As one of my things I like to do to relax is scrolling through accordion adds. I found this beauty in Spain <URL url="https://www.milanuncios.com/acordeones/acordeon-pigini-58-b-105-de-luxe-251409899.htm"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.milanuncios.com/acordeones/ ... 409899.htm">https://www.milanuncios.com/acordeones/acordeon-pigini-58-b-105-de-luxe-251409899.htm</LINK_TEXT></URL> seems like a bargain to me.
I could offer help as a mediator/translator if you like Smile
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#18
<QUOTE author="wout" post_id="54881" time="1517341283" user_id="1654"><s>
wout post_id=54881 time=1517341283 user_id=1654 Wrote:Hello! As one of my things I like to do to relax is scrolling through accordion adds. I found this beauty in Spain <URL url="https://www.milanuncios.com/acordeones/acordeon-pigini-58-b-105-de-luxe-251409899.htm"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.milanuncios.com/acordeones/ ... 409899.htm">https://www.milanuncios.com/acordeones/acordeon-pigini-58-b-105-de-luxe-251409899.htm</LINK_TEXT></URL> seems like a bargain to me.
I could offer help as a mediator/translator if you like Smile

That is a good find! It fits the OP's requirements except that it is listed as having only 55 notes on the bass side instead of 58 (which is a bit odd given the model number).
What sets this accordion apart from the more typical bayan style is the position of the keyboard: close to the player's chest, not forward as on most more recent convertor CBA instruments.
The price is really very good for this instrument.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#19
<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="54883" time="1517342243" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=54883 time=1517342243 user_id=605 Wrote:<QUOTE author="wout" post_id="54881" time="1517341283" user_id="1654"><s>
wout post_id=54881 time=1517341283 user_id=1654 Wrote:Hello! As one of my things I like to do to relax is scrolling through accordion adds. I found this beauty in Spain <URL url="https://www.milanuncios.com/acordeones/acordeon-pigini-58-b-105-de-luxe-251409899.htm"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.milanuncios.com/acordeones/ ... 409899.htm">https://www.milanuncios.com/acordeones/acordeon-pigini-58-b-105-de-luxe-251409899.htm</LINK_TEXT></URL> seems like a bargain to me.
I could offer help as a mediator/translator if you like Smile

That is a good find! It fits the OP's requirements except that it is listed as having only 55 notes on the bass side instead of 58 (which is a bit odd given the model number).
Also odd given full 120 bass buttons. However, the innards show <I><s>14</I> bass reeds in the Winkelbaß. Assuming an Italian standard bass configuration starting at A1, this would make the free bass start at G1, missing the customary E1, F1, and F♯1. That would be consistent with 55 notes in the converter and would suggest a standard bass layout that's less affected by having to double as converter than other instruments.

My main instrument also has 14 bass reeds but the standard bass starts at E1 as customary for Morinos (meaning that the free bass starts at D1). But for a standard bass, A1 is not the worst choice (it's what the acoustic part of the Excelsior that I put up a video with again just today has) and it responds faster generally than E1 would.
<QUOTE><s>
Quote:What sets this accordion apart from the more typical bayan style is the position of the keyboard: close to the player's chest, not forward as on most more recent convertor CBA instruments.
The price is really very good for this instrument.
The price is good, and I expect it to be less "converter-like" when you play the Stradella than other instruments. Yes, missing a few notes in the low free bass range (I assume that it's there that the notes are missing since it makes sense to me). Still looks like a reasonable compromise to me in return for being more "common" in the Stradella bass section.
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#20
<QUOTE author="Geronimo" post_id="54885" time="1517343431" user_id="2623"><s>
Geronimo post_id=54885 time=1517343431 user_id=2623 Wrote:...
Also odd given full 120 bass buttons. However, the innards show <I><s>14</I> bass reeds in the Winkelbaß. Assuming an Italian standard bass configuration starting at A1, this would make the free bass start at G1, missing the customary E1, F1, and F♯1. That would be consistent with 55 notes in the converter and would suggest a standard bass layout that's less affected by having to double as converter than other instruments.
...

Don't know the exact details of this older model, but Italian boxes often have more than 12 notes on the reed block with the lowest notes. (And even my Russian bayan has 13.) Since it is a convertor instrument it most likely starts at the low E1. Having 55 notes in the converter is not unusual either. For instance, the Bugari 580/ARS/C is a popular model with 61 notes on the treble side (3 more than the 58 notes it used to have some years ago) and it has 55 notes on the bass side, E to A#. On my bayan the three highest notes are also separate from the lower 55 notes.
(A CBA with fewer than 64 notes on the treble side is often missing the lowest notes, for instance going G to G with 61 notes, or G to E with 58 notes, but these do have the convertor that starts at E. Even my minute Bugari 540/ARS/C with only 49 notes on the convertor starts at low E1 and is just missing more of the high notes.)
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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