counter bass help -
#1
:hb reading about bass techniques on the other thread has made me realise i think i have missing something but dont know what exactly :?: :!:

counter bass - i don't use this row - 1st question , why ? i dont know the answer - 2nd question : what have i been missing ?

3rd question : i looked at a stradella chart and confused myself more as couldnt see notes i was expecting - maybe i looked at a bad chart but i expected the notes that are on the fundemental row to be on the counter bass row albeit in different places. am i right ?

4th question : when should i start using c/b

5th question : at what stage of one's learning would one look at c/bass row as it seems an integral part of the stradella but also seems quite unique?

sorry bout all the questions but if i get all the answers i'll send a :b or two
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#2
Wow, that's a lot of questions and can't probably be answered in one reply.
First, let's define counter bass (CB)...
On a normal stradella, the first row is the counter bass and the next row is the bass.
The counter bass is a 3rd above the bass (ie. C bass and E counter bass).

Sometimes the CB sounds real good against a chord, especially going from a 7th chord down one column .
Example: C7 to Fmaj. It's normally written C7/E to F.

Another use is to decorate a bass pattern such as C - Cmaj - G - Cmaj
Sometimes throwing in an E coujnter bass instead of the G makes the accompanyment more interesting.
1) Ballone Burini 46C (4+5) cassotto (LMMH) 3/3 PA; 2) Accordiola Piano V (5+5) cassotto (LMMMH) 3/3 PA;
3) Roland FR8X; 4) Hohner Vox 4k (LMMH) 3/3 CBA
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#3
Another use is to decorate a bass pattern such as C - Cmaj - G - Cmaj
Sometimes throwing in an E coujnter bass instead of the G makes the accompanyment more interesting

this seems good tip already and not too difficult in theory (as the above are some staple chords i play at the moment) and e c/b is only 1 button away from c Wink
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#4
The simple answer when to use is when the note you want next is closer on cb then on fb - so to get from F to E is a lot easier to use the counterbass 'E' than reach past CGDA.. obviously depending on which chord is following ie if its EM/m then you'll need to get up there anyway.
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#5
In the stradella bass system the counterbass row is 3 whole steps above the bass row and follows the same cycle of 5th's. This design allows you to run up and down major and minor scales with less hand movement. JIM D.
Owner & Operator "THE FISARMONICA SHOP" Chicopee, MA USA
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#6
<QUOTE author="Glenn"><s>
Glenn Wrote:Sometimes the CB sounds real good against a chord, especially going from a 7th chord down one column .
Example: C7 to Fmaj. It's normally written C7/E to F.

For that matter, it's good for C to F where C is just the plain major - the key is that the counterbass will be a half step below the following root, so it's a giant flaming cue.

You can also use it going down. Say your sequence is C G Am, throw the bass up to B instead of G and you have a pretty descending line. That however is not only less common, it has the potential to be a little corny and not always in good taste. The upwards direction (i.e., 3rd to 4th) is not always called for, but certainly much more often.
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#7
And Dave - you'll come across it the first time you try bass Major scales, whenever that should be.
And yep to the 3rd question.
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#8
<QUOTE author="Soulsaver"><s>
Soulsaver Wrote:And Dave - you'll come across it the first time you try bass Major scales, whenever that should be.

funny you should say that as i started practicing that several weeks ago as seemed like a good idea but not with the c/bass row :| just the f/b row - i wondered how people could do it so quickly and i couldnt

as i say i think i've missed something but the jigsaw is piecing together s l o w l y
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#9
Normal 4/3 fingering for major scale on the bass is c4 d2 e(cb)4 f5 g3 a(cb)5 b(cb)3 - you'll find it peasy after a 5 mins a day for a week - try it backwards too. Have fun.
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#10
The other route for this scale is:
c2 d(cb)4 e(cb)2 f3 g2 a(cb)4 b(cb)2
1) Ballone Burini 46C (4+5) cassotto (LMMH) 3/3 PA; 2) Accordiola Piano V (5+5) cassotto (LMMMH) 3/3 PA;
3) Roland FR8X; 4) Hohner Vox 4k (LMMH) 3/3 CBA
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#11
This info plus LOADS more can be found in ANZAGHIS complete method - 200+ A4
All the usual scales arpeggios exercises music including Carnival of Venice (was you who asked?) - It's c £32 inc post (below) but you'd need a 6 or 8 books in the Palmer H or Sedlon methods to compare.

Wasn't available on Amazon for a while but there is one there now - should you go for one make sure it's in English 'cos Italian ones come up - neither is owt to do with me - I bought one from the ebay guy - nice old fashioned looking (the bookSmile).

<URL url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0050GZU9K/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new"><LINK_TEXT text="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listin ... dition=new">http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0050GZU9K/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new</LINK_TEXT></URL>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

<URL url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281038516460?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649"><LINK_TEXT text="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281038516460? ... 1497.l2649">http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281038516460?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649</LINK_TEXT></URL>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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#12
<QUOTE author="Soulsaver"><s>
Soulsaver Wrote:This info plus LOADS more can be found in ANZAGHIS complete method - 200+ A4
All the usual scales arpeggios exercises music including Carnival of Venice (was you who asked?) - It's c £32 inc post (below) but you'd need a 6 or 8 books in the Palmer H or Sedlon methods to compare.

This is a very good method. There was a comment on the old forum marking it down because it didn’t contain many “tunes”, but the whole point of a method is to learn to play the instrument, what you do with it then is up to you...

I think that Allodi sell them.
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#13
<QUOTE author="BobM"><s>
BobM Wrote:<QUOTE author="Soulsaver"><s>
Soulsaver Wrote:This info plus LOADS more can be found in ANZAGHIS complete method - 200+ A4
All the usual scales arpeggios exercises music including Carnival of Venice (was you who asked?) - It's c £32 inc post (below) but you'd need a 6 or 8 books in the Palmer H or Sedlon methods to compare.

This is a very good method. There was a comment on the old forum marking it down because it didn’t contain many “tunes”, but the whole point of a method is to learn to play the instrument, what you do with it then is up to you...

I think that Allodi sell them.
And I was surprised by how many tunes threre are. All about expectations.. :tup:
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#14
The counter bass row is useful for making other chords, such as the minor 7ths, and generally for adding flavour to the bass. I often use the counter bass rather than the adjacent fundamental for alternating bass with major chords. It's also good for making little single note bass run transitions such as Em - Am - <B><s>D E F#</B> - Gmaj (in Robin's Waltz, for example).
<URL url="http://jubjubceilidhband.co.uk/">The JubJub Ceilidh Band</URL> and <URL url="http://www.kirstenbaron.co.uk/">Me</URL>
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#15
<QUOTE author="Glenn"><s>
Glenn Wrote:The other route for this scale is:
c2 d(cb)4 e(cb)2 f3 g2 a(cb)4 b(cb)2

And yet another route if, like me, you dont fancy the pinky in there: C3 D2 Ecb3 F4 G2 Acb4 Bcb2
Technically correct action on this, I believe, is to poise 4,3,2 'home' on FCG and move each finger out and back home before playing the next bass.

There is also a 2 finger technique for 3/2ists but it escapes me for the mo.

As long your not doing an exam on it & your hitting the right notes in the right order and not catching the 'near-by's as you speed up and develop your dexterity & technique, for me, you can pretty well do as you like.
The only thing to avoid from gaining speed point of view is using the same finger twice in a row.
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#16
This all goes to pot when you want to play a minor scale.... alas.... Sad
1) Ballone Burini 46C (4+5) cassotto (LMMH) 3/3 PA; 2) Accordiola Piano V (5+5) cassotto (LMMMH) 3/3 PA;
3) Roland FR8X; 4) Hohner Vox 4k (LMMH) 3/3 CBA
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#17
<QUOTE author="Glenn"><s>
Glenn Wrote:This all goes to pot when you want to play a minor scale.... alas.... Sad

Not for a Natural or Dorian minor scale, which in the key of C is the D to D scale.
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#18
Your quite right Bob and it's called the Dorian Mode. JIM D.
Owner & Operator "THE FISARMONICA SHOP" Chicopee, MA USA
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#19
So there is a fingering for this not using the 5th finger?
For the key of C with a melodic (natural) minor, I find if use the pattern via G in the base row or G in the counter bass row you need the 5th somewhere.
1) Ballone Burini 46C (4+5) cassotto (LMMH) 3/3 PA; 2) Accordiola Piano V (5+5) cassotto (LMMMH) 3/3 PA;
3) Roland FR8X; 4) Hohner Vox 4k (LMMH) 3/3 CBA
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#20
<QUOTE author="Glenn"><s>
Glenn Wrote:So there is a fingering for this not using the 5th finger?
For the key of C with a melodic (natural) minor, I find if use the pattern via G in the base row or G in the counter bass row you need the 5th somewhere.

At the moment I don’t use my 5th finger for a major scale. For a scale of C (Dorian) minor simply put your hand in the position to play a Bb scale but start on the the second degree, C, and play C to C, which gives you a minor scale.
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