E TO C ON PIANO KEY

[Walker]

Here's a question for the classical folk here.

Most classical piano accordions have keyboards of 45 keys E to C and sometimes 47 keys of Eb to C#.

How often do you need to use the top C?

Thanks,

Stewart

 

[debra]

...
Most classical piano accordions have keyboards of 45 keys E to C and sometimes 47 keys of Eb to C#.

How often do you need to use the top C?
...

Very often.
They for instance make special jazz accordions with a range from G to C to keep the size down and sacrifice the low notes to keep the high C. This is done because the L register has the nicest sound.
I make arrangements from all kinds of music, including music for flute, violin,... and high C is used a lot. (low notes not so much).
By now I'm used to even larger ranges (on button accordion). 52 notes is barely enough, 58 is better, 64 is comfortable.

 

[Walker]

I have always played 41 key instruments (F - A) and found the range of notes to be comfortable, but then I suppose you don't miss the things you never had.

When designers decided to increase the size of the accordion keyboard from F - A (41 keys) to E - C (45 keys), do you think it was because:

1. Classical music on the accordion needs a C8 in piccolo (C7 in clarinet)
2. E to C (or Eb to C#) to gives the keyboard a certain symmetrical balance (see photo of model Nova Piano produced by Pigini Accordions.)
3. To match the top note on the piano (or beat it by a semitone if the instrument has C#)


Given that a lot of Bach clavier music does not require a C7 or C8, could there not have been wisdom in leaving the top note as A6 (A7 in piccolo voice) and increasing the range of the keyboard at the low end, an idea that I first heard proposed by @saundersbp, of a classical instrument range of C to A (46 notes starting C3 in clarinet voice)? We never see such instruments, why not?

Indeed, the ultimate might be to have C to C (with 49 keys)? See image below, model Optima by Zero Sette Accordions.



In the grand scheme of things, perhaps the variety of keyboard layouts don't matter that much, as long as we can play the music we want on our accordions. Yet, on the other hand the notion of instrument standardisation seems very far away indeed!

 

[debra]

An accordion starting at the low C can be used as "cello accordion". In a distant past you could buy a cello accordion but nowadays not any more. Indeed Zero Sette has that C to C with 49 notes. AKKO makes a piano accordion that is D to D with 49 notes. Not sure which is the more useful range as sometimes I do use the low C and sometimes I do use the high D...
The main reason why I find an accordion going up to C very useful is for playing violin parts. Many violin compositions go beyond the A6 we have on a standard 41-key accordion. A lot of compositions and arrangements for accordion ensemble or orchestra also assume that at least in the first voice the accordions are 45 key instruments.

 

[Ffingers]

Walker: "Yet, on the other hand the notion of instrument standardisation seems very far away indeed!"

Which is how things should be; otherwise stagnation sets in.

 

[saundersbp]

Walker: "Yet, on the other hand the notion of instrument standardisation seems very far away indeed!"

Which is how things should be; otherwise stagnation sets in.

On the other hand, the lack of standardisation results in lamentable teaching resources for classical rep, total confusion for the beginner, and astronomically high instrument prices through artisan production methods. Fine for well pensioned retired gentlemen amusing themselves, but for a young person starting out....

 

[debra]

I was just about to start on a new recording of an arrangement I made long ago, of Spleen by Richard Galliano. I have an old live recording...

To me this does not sound extra-ordinary so it should fit on an accordion? Well... The first voice (played on accordina in the recording) needs to go up to C7. The second voice goes up to Bb6.
One of my most recent arrangements is a Scherzo from a string quartet by Schubert...

The first voice uses D7 but people may not notice if D6 is played instead. The second voice uses a high B in LM register. You can play that section lower in MH but it doesn't sound the same.
I reckon that from my currently 178 arrangements about half use notes higher than A6, and maybe 10% use notes higher than C7. For all my arrangements I do include "instructions" on how to get by with a standard piano accordion with only 41 keys, but it is never ideal...
And the sad part in accordion construction is that all these 41 key accordions have just one reed block (or pair) that is fully occupied and one reed block (or pair) with unused slots that could be used to give the accordion more notes, in the same size box, except for fitting more keys.

 

[Walker]

So if we consider that it is useful to have C7, for musical reasons, then that is something easily achievable in both button and piano accordions. However, my experience of playing a 45 or 47 key instrument, is that they are quite large and weighty. This issue can be negated by 19mm keys, which brings the overall bulk of a classical piano accordion down close to the size of a 41 key instrument.

However, for the fullest possible treble range of notes, there is only one solution, which is the 64 note button accordion. The full canvas of sound, however still comes at a heavy cost. Such instruments are often 14kg and higher. In my opinion, this not an acceptable price to pay for the full spectrum of sound.

This is where I refer back to Galliano. He plays a button instrument model that according to Victoria's website is around 11.8kg, and he has the same 47 note range that's common to piano accordion too.

Thing is, when you have gone to 64 notes, it's maybe not possible to go back to smaller instruments, even when they are a comfortable weight...

 

[debra]

So if we consider that it is useful to have C7, for musical reasons, then that is something easily achievable in both button and piano accordions. However, my experience of playing a 45 or 47 key instrument, is that they are quite large and weighty. This issue can be negated by 19mm keys, which brings the overall bulk of a classical piano accordion down close to the size of a 41 key instrument.

However, for the fullest possible treble range of notes, there is only one solution, which is the 64 note button accordion. The full canvas of sound, however still comes at a heavy cost. Such instruments are often 14kg and higher. In my opinion, this not an acceptable price to pay for the full spectrum of sound.

This is where I refer back to Galliano. He plays a button instrument model that according to Victoria's website is around 11.8kg, and he has the same 47 note range that's common to piano accordion too.

Thing is, when you have gone to 64 notes, it's maybe not possible to go back to smaller instruments, even when they are a comfortable weight...

I have played a 45-key piano accordion for a few years, and some of my friends still do, including women who are not very tall. Although the keyboard has 3 more white keys the keys are a bit narrower, gaining back the width of one key over the entire keyboard. With even narrower keys you can keep the size reasonable even with 49 keys, as the AKKO Tatiana (range D to D, length 49,3cm). In the real world large piano accordions weigh in at around 14kg. Only the most expensive accordions (like a Pigini Nova) shave a little bit off, but not all that much. When you play an accordion, you better get used to a weight between 13 and 15kg. My 64-note bayan comes in at 14kg. A Bugari 289/ARS/C4 (with 45 keys) weighs the same. The few extra notes on the treble side of a full size bayan weigh about the same as the weight saved by having a more compact body. Most of the weight goes towards the bass side with convertor (and 58 notes), and this explains why there isn't a real difference in weight.
Richard Galliano's accordion must be a bit lighter, but 11.8kg is a myth: every accordion manufacturer is about 1kg optimistic in listing the weight of any accordion. He has a lighter bass construction (the quint-convertor uses register sliders to do the conversion instead of the heavier mechanics switch of a chromatic convertor, and the 6-row quint convertor has just 36 notes instead of up to 58 or even slightly more on a chromatic convertor.
The heaviest accordions are around 17 to 18kg, like the 5 voice Hohner Morino VI with 3 extra rows MIII melody bas instead of a convertor mechanism. (My button version, the Artiste X S, is 18kg and has 56 notes instead of the Morino's 45.) The most important size/weight aspect of an accordion is a "good fit". The weight is not that important once you manage to lift the accordion off the ground get into the (seated) playing position.

 

[Walker]

My own accordion is very comfortable, though it is 41/120, 4 voice treble (LMMH) with quint converter (with L & M voices, giving a 4 octave max range). It's well under 12kg, yet it is not made from light materials. For example, the reed blocks are all finished in mahogany. I really don't believe we have to accept very heavy accordions, but it requires compromises in the number of voices or bass reeds etc.

 

[debra]

My own accordion is very comfortable, though it is 41/120, 4 voice treble (LMMH) with quint converter (with L & M voices, giving a 4 octave max range). It's well under 12kg, yet it is not made from light materials. For example, the reed blocks are all finished in mahogany. I really don't believe we have to accept very heavy accordions, but it requires compromises in the number of voices or bass reeds etc.

Surely accordions can be made lighter. A friend of mine has an old Hohner Morino IV M (bought in he fifties). It is very light. How did they do it? The bass is 4 voice (most accordions have a 5 voice bass). The case is made of rather thin wood, with lightweight mechanism for keeping bass part, bellows and treble side together, no bellow straps needed, no bellow pins, very simple and light brackets to keep the reed blocks in place, etc., etc. When his accordion tumbled down from a couch onto the (linoleum) floor the treble side broke free from the bellows, the two front corners were cracked open and the front of the case was cracked over the entire length. That's what lightweight construction gives you.
Seriously, when you add 4 notes to the treble side to go from 41 to 45 and you change nothing else (like, no convertor added), the weight difference is negligible, the case can stay the same, only the keyboard grows by just under 4cm. What makes large accordions heavy is that they have a lot of other additions besides the 4 notes. They come with convertor and 58 notes melody bass, they all have cassotto, have chin switches, and the are typically made for professional use which requires them to be a bit stronger, to survive some bumps.
Victoria makes a Poeta Piuma 47, which comes with 4 voice bass, no melody bass/convertor, no chin switches (by default) no bellow straps, everything done to make it light, and they claim it weighs 9.8kg, shoulder straps not included of course. (And remember, manufacturers are always optimistic.) Would I want one? No: I have seen what happens when a lightweight accordion has an "accident"...

 

[Ffingers]

On the other hand, the lack of standardisation results in lamentable teaching resources for classical rep, total confusion for the beginner, and astronomically high instrument prices through artisan production methods. Fine for well pensioned retired gentlemen amusing themselves, but for a young person starting out....

So, do tell, just how have the existing maestri managed to achieve their greatness?
How do they manage to make music across a number of diverse instruments?
How come that a young acquaintance of mine plays piano, violin and a selection of reeds to a very high standard?

In the long experience of this poorly pensioned “gentleman” (?), it is unwise to underestimate the capabilities of determined young talent.

Mediocrities are another matter entirely.

 

[petch]

Just because people achieve greatness in something doesn't mean that thing is accessible

 

[Walker]

I don't have any personal experience of greatness, but I rather think mediocrity is sadly underrated. To play a musical instrument to any level is a gift and a triumph.

 

[Tom]

People have different natural abilities. Besides, as we've seen a million times on youtube, it's not technical ability, but musical ability that characterizes greatness. We've all heard the one about BB King saying more with one note than (fill in the blank) with one million.

 

[saundersbp]

it is unwise to underestimate the capabilities of determined young talent.

Accessibility and opportunity are very real things especially in the arts. Determination and dedication are different issues.

 

[debra]

So, do tell, just how have the existing maestri managed to achieve their greatness?
How do they manage to make music across a number of diverse instruments?
How come that a young acquaintance of mine plays piano, violin and a selection of reeds to a very high standard?
...

It's a matter of talent, starting young, having good teachers, and practice, practice, practice...

 

[Ventura]

ba da
ba da ... daa daa
daaaaaaaa da

the Duke of Ellington.. the lesson in 2 notes

simplicity

timing

and now i'm gonna take the A train outa here

 

[Ffingers]

Accessibility and opportunity are very real things especially in the arts. Determination and dedication are different issues.

Do you imagine that I am unaware of that?
On the other hand, rigid standardisation of teaching can be the death of creativity and inspiration.
I have personal experience of a close relative who as a young chap gained scholarship entry into a prestigeous music school but family circumstances moved him to a region where only high school level classes were available.
After two terms, he gave up as a consequence of the teacher refusing to acknowledge the young man's individual capabilities.
He never played again because of the acquired tauma.
Such wasted talent.

 

[Ffingers]

It's a matter of talent, starting young, having good teachers, and practice, practice, practice...

Indeed, Paul.
But not because of a degree of standardisation of instruction nor of the instrument being learned on.
Musicality is a very individual talent and a good teacher will recognise and encourage its development and a young student of reasonable capability will have little difficulty in adapting to variations in different instruments.