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Determine fingering for music pieces / melodies learned by ear

EuroFolker

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Just wondering about your guys' workflow for learning a tune "by ear" and playing it on the accordion.

Let's say you can't find any notation for it, let alone transcription for accordion.

Maybe running it through chord detection software is useful.

But how do you determine the treble side fingering?

Figure out the scales in use and then apply the most common fingering for those scales?

Is it mostly a "comes with experience" thing?
 
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I am not someone that plays by ear, but generally speaking, I can spot them a mile away by their lack of technique. The best self taught player I ever saw only used 3 out of 5 fingers. He was good but so limited. :)

Now, no one please infer that I meant that all people self taught have bad technique, it is inherent in that you will excel in the area you practice the most. People playing by ear generally don’t practice scales, arpeggios, Hanon exercises, but they do develop an amazing ear and usually quite the repertoire.
 
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I am not someone that plays by ear, but generally speaking, I can spot them a mile away by their lack of technique. The best self taught player I ever saw only used 3 out of 5 fingers. He was good but so limited. :)

Now, no one please infer that I meant that all people self taught have bad technique, it is inherent in that you will excel in the area you practice the most. People playing by ear generally don’t practice scales, arpeggios, Hanon exercises, but they do develop an amazing ear and usually quite the repertoire.
Before I studied with Charles Nunzio, I played accordion entirely by ear. I knew elementary notation from a year of piano lessons that I had taken decades before, but that was it. So I can’t imagine how one can learn good technique without studying from printed music and without a teacher. I saw a video of myself playing from over 35 years ago, before I even met Mr. Nunzio. What horrible technique! I hope no accordion players ever get a hold of it!
 
I am not someone that plays by ear, but generally speaking, I can spot them a mile away by their lack of technique. The best self taught player I ever saw only used 3 out of 5 fingers. He was good but so limited. :)

Now, no one please infer that I meant that all people self taught have bad technique, it is inherent in that you will excel in the area you practice the most. People playing by ear generally don’t practice scales, arpeggios, Hanon exercises, but they do develop an amazing ear and usually quite the repertoire.

The OP has "folk"' in their moniker and here has asked about "tunes," a conventional term for folk music of Irish and other genres. Based on these indicators, I'm hypothesizing that the question concerns largely treble-side single-melody-line folk tunes learned by ear.

In many folk genres, not only is ear learning and playing not a signal of poor technique, it is considered poor musicianship not to do so. One might use "the dots" at times, but learning and playing by ear is almost de rigueur. At workshops taught by master musicians at trad festivals or "camps," the tunes are more often than not taught by ear, usually phrase by phrase, and you are expected to have a recording device with you. People also acquire and build repertoire by recording tunes at sessions and learning them later from the recording.

At the same time, though, it's true that fingering folk tunes can be a challenge at first for apprentice-level accordionists to figure out on their own, whether by ear or by written music lacking fingering directions. I do find this especially so for PA as opposed to button instruments be they unisonoric (CBA) or bisonoric---Am I recalling correctly from other threads that the OP plays PA?

At first, fingering folk tunes on your own on a PA can seem maddeningly tune-specific, but there is knack to it that comes with time and practice at working it out. Basically, if your fingers tangle up or you run out of fingers to get you where you need to go, you have to go back and try again until you figure out the "solution" that works for playing it smoothly and to speed.

The good news is that a "solution" always exists, even if it means slightly rearranging (or deleting) nonessential notes to make the tune finger in an "instrument-friendly" way to your instrument. Remember, that folk tune is not a classical score by Lizst or Beethoven drafted with a quill and inkstand for the piano. It's a snatch of melody transmitted aurally and learned by ear and fingered by generations of fiddlers, flutists, pipers, etc. They are all figuring it out just like you are.

Part of it getting it on PA does involve classic techniques for getting up and down a keyboard, and some instruction can be helpful, as posters have noted above. There are also techniques that seem more folk/trad related-- for example, if you watch Irish and Scottish PA players you'll see little to no pinky use. This differs from conservatory technique, but for whatever reason it does help with working out PA fingering for folk tunes. My own facility at tune fingering grew by leaps and bounds after I designated the fifth finger "emergency use only."

It can be very helpful to have at least a few Zoom meetings with one of the awesome trad PA players who teach, and can take you through the process of fingering some tunes.
 
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,,,
But how do you determine the treble side fingering?

Figure out the scales in use and then apply the most common fingering for those scales?


I play piano, both from printed music, improvising, and composing arrangements. (I studied piano for many years with good teachers.) Much of the printed piano music includes suggested fingering - some of the difficult pieces almost require specific fingering.

A good teacher for any instrument is a huge help, watching, correcting, and suggesting fingering improvements. If going it alone, as I do when developing my own arrangements, I suggest stopping and working out fingering on difficult phrases then practicing them repeatedly and slowly.

For working out tricky fingering it is far easier for me to look at the keyboard, difficult on the PA especially for a rank beginner like myself. However, since a left shoulder injury has put even working the bellows impossible, for now I’ve switched to using a melodica so I can at least work on the right hand. Since the keys on the PA have vastly different spacing from the piano but fortunately the PA and melodica key spacings are quite close, using a melodica is helping me with the transition, both in intervals and fingering. (The interval difference is worse than the fingering!) I can set the little melodica keyboard flat in front of me to see and work out the fingering, then hold it vertically in the “accordion position” to practice. Some may think this is a shameful crutch but hey, it works for me!

Scales may help when doing runs or segments but not much otherwise.

Unfortunately, there are huge benefits in making the huge effort to learn to read music, especially with the help of a good teacher.

JKJ
 
"The OP has "folk"' in their moniker and here has asked about "tunes," a conventional term for folk music of Irish and other genres. Based on these indicators, I'm hypothesizing that the question concerns largely treble-side single-melody-line folk tunes learned by ear."

Like many here, I am not a native English speaker so my use of "tunes" or any other terms, can be arbitrary and without the meaning it has for an Anglo person.

But I do like most any *genuine* folk music (as opposed to blatantly commercial), from all over the globe.

As far as fingering, having it indicated above the notes feels.... luxurious? It's all already figured out for me, and works well when I try it :)

And now when I am trying to figure out a melody, even if I can play it smoothly, it feels all wrong to me because I am probably using the worst possible fingering imaginable :)
 
OK, thanks for clarifying-! If your meaning is general and not specific to certain folk genres, the good news is that folk music is usually simple enough that with practice you will be able to master the knack of figuring out fingering to tunes you have ear-learned. (There are exceptions--some Serbian, Bulgarian, and other Balkan genres can be very complex, for example.)

But in the meantime, some technical guidance on the basics of navigating a keyboard smoothly without snarl-ups and stumbles would be an invaluable investment. Also, experience with seeing written music that does have the fingering notated can become a reference bank in your mind that you can extrapolate from as to what does and does not work when fingering tunes for yourself.

Taking two or three ear-learned tunes to a teacher with specific questions about the spots where you are puzzled for fingering "solutions" can also be very illuminating.
 
Hanon for accordion or Piano

as long as you have worked on your over and unders in the
various ways then when you work by ear your fingers should kind of
naturally find those appropriate spots to transition up and down the
keys without tripping over yourself

sort of like where do you take a breath when you are singing ?

well, at the best opportunities, of course, and the exercises
give you that tool to exploit the when. Just trust your training
and practice some of the Hanon every day in between the fun stuff
is my suggestion, and don't be too hard on yourself until you get there.
 
Use scales etc. I play mostly by ear, every practise session, I do scales, in every key one and two octaves, arpeggios two octaves, three chord inversions for major and minor seventh chords. Sounds like a lot of trouble, BUT, it takes me now a very few m8nutes at the start of a practise session. After a couple months of struggling with it, it got easier , now it is just a simple warm up. It helped my fingering immensely, it helped me to pick up new tunes. It didn’t help my speling tho :-)
 
Just wondering about your guys' workflow for learning a tune "by ear" and playing it on the accordion.

Let's say you can't find any notation for it, let alone transcription for accordion.

Maybe running it through chord detection software is useful.

But how do you determine the treble side fingering?

Figure out the scales in use and then apply the most common fingering for those scales?

Is it mostly a "comes with experience" thing?
CBA player here. I mostly think in terms of notes and also buttons. Fingers tend to arrange themselves in a manner where they don't run out. Sometimes by doing finger changes. I don't really plan ahead much: several years ago I was much more prone to "paint myself into a corner". I don't think that has changed all that much; it's just that one has become so muc better at weaseling out of corners again.

Also at what counts as a corner: when you have repeated notes/phrases, there is no necessity to keep using the same fingering in the repetition when you can easily prepare for what comes afterwards.
 
Just wondering about your guys' workflow for learning a tune "by ear" and playing it on the accordion.

Let's say you can't find any notation for it, let alone transcription for accordion.

Maybe running it through chord detection software is useful.

But how do you determine the treble side fingering?

Figure out the scales in use and then apply the most common fingering for those scales?

Is it mostly a "comes with experience" thing?
There is a thread “The art of fingering PA” and that contains a reference to a book on fingering
 
There is a thread “The art of fingering PA” and that contains a reference to a book on fingering
The reader would have to”resort” to reading in order to take advantage of said book.
 
Hi I'm not sure people actually understand the terminology.
Playing by ear does not mean you can't read music.

It is the ability to play a piece of music that you have heard and then memorise.
One of the grade disciplines is to listen to a piece of music and then try and accurately notate it.

I worked with a chap that had the ability to hear, remember, notate is was crazy.
Hearing all the intervals,harmony must be quite wonderful.
Anything more complex than the basic melody I'm lost and even worse for him not everyone could read
So he would have to then convert to Nashville system:LOL:
 
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CBA player here. I mostly think in terms of notes and also buttons. Fingers tend to arrange themselves in a manner where they don't run out. Sometimes by doing finger changes. I don't really plan ahead much: several years ago I was much more prone to "paint myself into a corner". I don't think that has changed all that much; it's just that one has become so much better at weaseling out of corners again.

Also at what counts as a corner: when you have repeated notes/phrases, there is no necessity to keep using the same fingering in the repetition when you can easily prepare for what comes afterwards.
Just like my 4 wheel drive Jeep, it gets me into places I never should have been in in the first place!
 
And now when I am trying to figure out a melody, even if I can play it smoothly, it feels all wrong to me because I am probably using the worst possible fingering imaginable :)
There is one simple rule that is easy to reference, a little harder to do... use the fingering that gives you the opportunity to reach the next required note in the most effective/effecient manner. If your fingering is 10 notes and you need to cross under fingers 5 times, its not the most effective fingering, right? :).
 
Pretty simple, if you find you continually stumble in a particular part, then it’s time to experiment with fingering.
BUT, sometimes it’s just that the tune is a little more than you can handle at the moment. So more practise.
When I first tried Achtung Los, the fingering was a nightmare for me. Tried several different ones, then as the tune got better, the fingering automatically became natural.
 
Pretty simple, if you find you continually stumble in a particular part, then it’s time to experiment with fingering.
BUT, sometimes it’s just that the tune is a little more than you can handle at the moment. So more practise.
When I first tried Achtung Los, the fingering was a nightmare for me. Tried several different ones, then as the tune got better, the fingering automatically became natural.
Hi squeezplay I looked up "Achtung Los" there is no way I would ever be able to learn that note for note:rolleyes:
A lifetime of busking my way through everything ,I just dont have and may never of had the discipline.
 
If it was easy to play the accordion everyone would be doing it
No instrument is easy to play to any standard, but in terms of difficulty I’d place the accordion above the piano and at the top of the list of the difficulty mountain would have to be the stringed instruments like the violin/viola, etc.

But yes, totally agree, if it was easy more people would be playing it, especially in today’s “instant gratification” society. :D
 
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