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The Joys of CBA's

Galingale

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I would be really delighted if anyone else wants to chat, share enthusiasm, or gather info about the B-system chromatic.
I can't read music, can't play keyboard and can't sing but I perform locally with my lovely Saltarelle. She was built especially for me in Dijon, France.
I regularly jam with Folk/Rock and Americana bands in pubs, at fetes and outdoor events. If I'm not playing accordion I can bore you to death talking about it!
 
Well, always better to listen to people talk about accordions than to hear them playing the dang things ;).
I do like my B system boxes - I find the system very intuitive and easy to finger.
 
Well, I play a C system, and I have never tried a B system. I am curious, for those who play a B system, did you actually try out both systems and decide that B was the better?

My impression has always been that neither system is better in every way, and most people simply stay with whatever system was most readily available to them when they started. Also, regional preferences tend to perpetuate themselves.
 
Never tried the C system, but looking at the layout, it makes no sense to me whatsoever. I'm sure there is some logic to it :unsure:

In my case, I started off wanting a bayan (before I've learned that there's very expensive high-end bayans and there's affordable bayan-shaped objects that might sometimes even make some sound when you press a button) and my first experience was with a 3-row B-griff weltmeister accordion. Loved the concept of playing an accordion, but didn't get on well with the complexities of a 3-row keyboard. Stopped trying to learn the accordion for almost a year until I spotted a nice 5-row B system box for sale. Started looking into the 5-row system and realised that it's got completely different fingerings that are very intuitive and easy to learn (and have very little to do with the 3-row system).

In terms of availability, I thought I'd be a smart arse and go for something that's least popular in my area, the bright idea being that when one comes up for sale, it will be buyer's market and the price will be right. In the end, I don't think there were any pros or cons of this decision - B system boxes are very rare in the UK, and even in Europe the C system seems to prevail, however, there's definitely more demand for C system, so the market just seems to balance itself.

I've been told by very experienced folks that there is no practical difference between the two (and even the PA is not that far behind - it all comes down to your talent and the hours that you put into learning & practicing... For the CBA you only need to learn 2 fingerings to play in any key though!). But somebody on this forum suggested that B system lends itself to easier slides up a semitone - looking at the layout that does make sense.
 
I am curious, for those who play a B system, did you actually try out both systems and decide that B was the better?

Ha! I went several decades without encountering either instrument. When I decided to try the accordion it was all shopping online and self-teaching. I was given the impression the B system had a technical edge by what I read, and when I experimented with a tablet app it felt a tiny bit more comfortable to me... but I agree that in the end there's very little technical difference, and for most people it's a matter of what they can get, or what they are taught, not anything else.

Even if one layout was slightly more ergonomic than the other... I mean, millions of us have learned to type fast and precisely on a QWERTY keyboard...
 
Well, I play a C system, and I have never tried a B system. I am curious, for those who play a B system, did you actually try out both systems and decide that B was the better?

My impression has always been that neither system is better in every way, and most people simply stay with whatever system was most readily available to them when they started. Also, regional preferences tend to perpetuate themselves.
You're right. I too, am not convinced that either system is better than the other and I stayed with the system I happened to try first. As far as regional preferences are concerned, you may be interested that there is, to my knowledge absolutely no one playing a B system within many hours drive of me in Cornwall UK!
I once made the mistake of extolling its virtues to a Croatian friend, soon after the Balkan War. Big mistake and nearly the end of a good friendship. I naively assumed that all CBA's were enjoyed equally throughout the former Yugoslavia, but that was definitely not the case with my elderly Dalmatian neighbour. Regional preferences.
I have adjusted the settings on my Roland FRb1 to create a C-system, which I tried for a while. but found it difficult. I would suggest that using the Roland FRb is an excellent way to find out which system suits you best, B or C.
Thanks so much for your thoughts.
 
Never tried the C system, but looking at the layout, it makes no sense to me whatsoever.
I don't understand this comment. The C and B systems are mirror images of each other. On a three-row instrument, just swap the 1st and 3rd rows, and you change one system to the other. It seems to me that both systems follow the same logic.
 
I don't understand this comment.
It was, in part, a joke. ;)
Don't really know about 3-row keyboards, however, when you look at the 5-row ones, the C system looks alien to a B system player.

As you are probably well aware, the 4th row linkages on a C system are shifted by 1 column compared to the B system, so things get a bit hairy.
 
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Reminded by this thread I finally today bought me a CBA app for my iPad, so I can practice more, without always getting my C system box out. This app (”Hohner Chromatic Accordion”) can model B system too, and has other tweakable settings. I plumped for learning C based on it looking more natural to me, and importantly self tuition books being more readily available to me. I am very happy with my new French CBA box. Though very much still in the beginning stages.

IMG_4969.jpeg
 
From my reading over the last 15 months or so, I have concluded tha the C systm benefits from more instructional material being available in English and other Western European languages with which most of us are familiar, whereas the B system has advantages for those who wish to play Classical, Eastern European, Balkan, Russian and some Jazz styles.
No first-hand experience, though, but I did elect for the B system which, being in a part of the world dominated by PA, has been a rather problematic decision.
 
From my reading over the last 15 months or so, I have concluded tha the C systm benefits from more instructional material being available in English and other Western European languages with which most of us are familiar, whereas the B system has advantages for those who wish to play Classical, Eastern European, Balkan, Russian and some Jazz styles.
No first-hand experience, though, but I did elect for the B system which, being in a part of the world dominated by PA, has been a rather problematic decision.
I have never found any instructional material, written in English for the B system! If anyone knows different let me know. However I can't really agree about the system being more suited to the styles you suggest. I play rock and roll and blues, folk and cajun on my B system and it's perfect for that. Our unifying medium, the fab stradella left hand section makes those genres even easier to provide backing for. All so intuitive, and ideal for those with ADHD tendencies who can't read a note of music, like me!
 
Reminded by this thread I finally today bought me a CBA app for my iPad, so I can practice more, without always getting my C system box out. This app (”Hohner Chromatic Accordion”) can model B system too, and has other tweakable settings. I plumped for learning C based on it looking more natural to me, and importantly self tuition books being more readily available to me. I am very happy with my new French CBA box. Though very much still in the beginning stages.

IMG_4969.jpeg
Wow! I envy you for doing anything with the App! I tried it but could never find where I was on the screen. At the end of the day, I think you just have to practice and practice, using tactile pressure and some manual dexterity. As I say, I think it is intuitively easier than a keyboard, so try to erase any knowledge of that , from your mind, and learn purely by the sound your fingers are making as they press the buttons. After all, you can't see your left hand, so why look at your right? that's why I didn't find the app much use. The "C" button is usually dimpled or serrated which can help and I confess I do have to glance down a bit, often just to centre myself again.
Also I find I have to think ahead about exactly which way to play a scale, when I'm confronted by a new number. So many options on a CBA and you can get in a muddle, I find. That's probably my lack of experience and also lack of tuition!!
 
I play rock and roll and blues
Do you have Stradella-Stradella or do you have French bass in your left? I expect French bass to be much better for these styles.

I don't think language makes any difference to fingering guides at all.
There's a 1976 book by a fella called Osokin with the 5-row B-griff fingering system. You only need to read russian if you want to know what's in the introductory chapter, as the rest of it is pretty self-explanatory charts for 3rd & 1st row fingerings for different scales.
I was playing the 5-row RHS after only a couple weeks practicing scales and sight-reading very basic tunes.

If you want to master a 3-row keyboard, then I don't think that the best book in the world will help you if you don't have a very experienced teacher who can introduce you to the dark art of playing 3-row B system, or at least that was my impression when I tried it.
 
Do you have Stradella-Stradella or do you have French bass in your left? I expect French bass to be much better for these styles.

I don't think language makes any difference to fingering guides at all.
There's a 1976 book by a fella called Osokin with the 5-row B-griff fingering system. You only need to read russian if you want to know what's in the introductory chapter, as the rest of it is pretty self-explanatory charts for 3rd & 1st row fingerings for different scales.
I was playing the 5-row RHS after only a couple weeks practicing scales and sight-reading very basic tunes.

If you want to master a 3-row keyboard, then I don't think that the best book in the world will help you if you don't have a very experienced teacher who can introduce you to the dark art of playing 3-row B system, or at least that was my impression when I tried it.
Very interesting. I have Stradella on my left and I'm not familiar with the French Bass, but I'm probably too old to learn a new system!!
The book sounds good, so I'll try and find a copy. Do you know the name of the book?
 
The French is the same as 6-row Stradella, but instead of having 2bass+4chords, you have 3b+3c. You drop the Dim chord row and gain a minor third bass row instead. A huge amount of blues/rock/rock'n'roll riffs become very easily playable with the bass line.
It's very easy to switch between the two systems - to go from French to Stradella, you just shift your fingers 1 row up. From Stradella to French you shift them 1 row down (but you no longer have easy minor third bass access). So no re-learning required at all, unless you make heavy use of dim chords on the Stradella.

I'll drop you a message about the book.
In regard to the right hand side B system,
It's a very easy, "universal" system that you use as a base for playing everything, and it keeps your hand in comfortable & relaxed position. C row & D row fingering are reasonably similar (unlike the 3-row keyboard where the 3 row fingerings are wildly different), and you only alter your fingerings if there's a good reason for it (you'll figure it out yourself, as everything is very intuitive).

The base for the fingerings is shown in a pic below. Note: The row numbering is upside-down, i.e. in the picture, the bottom row (5) is the outer ( further away from the bellows) row of your keyboard (despite being marked as "5" - I think most people will call this row "1").

Numbers next to notes refer to fingers (1 = thumb; 5 = pinkie). A "-" after the number refers to the first additional row (confusingly marked as row 2 in the diagram), and a "+" refers to the second additional row (i.e. closest to the bellows, confusingly marked as 1 on the diagram). If there's no + or - after the finger number, you just play it on your main 3 rows.
The hand position is always perpendicular to the keyboard (it changes angle slightly as you go up & down the range, but there's no position changes to learn like you'd do on a 3-row keyboard).

Obviously, any key from the "G" row can be fingered with either "C" or "D" pattern - you've got a lot of choice here.

Apart from the main idea shown below, there's about 20 pages of diagrams for different scales & arpeggios, but they tend to follow the same concept as the major scale: similar-ish standard patterns for C&D and relaxed hand position.

Osokin.jpg

You can see main pattern from the C scale: you play C-D-E-F with fingers 1-2-3-4, then you shift the hand to play G-A-B-C in exactly the same 4-finger manner (1-2-3-4), unless you intend to continue playing the scale an octave higher. In which case you need to finger 1-2-3-1, so you are starting with a thumb on the C for the new scale run.

The D row pattern is the second one you need to learn. Playing D-E-F# with 1-2-3, then shifting your hand to play G-A-B-C# with 1-2-3-4. The final D is played with a pinkie or with a thumb if you are continuing to play the scale an octave higher.

Apologies if my explanations are rubbish - the system itself is very straightforward.
 
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Hopefully, not too confusing.

Here are your basic maj scales: C, G and D. (You don't need the G row in this case, as it's exactly the same pattern as C or D).
Osokin2.jpg

It takes more time to understand how Osokin presents the material than to understand the system itself.
 
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Is this in Russian ?🤔
My Google translate refuses to accept it?🤔
Oddly enough, just messing with it, I'm beginning to work it out intuitively.😄
 
It is, but there's literally 20 pages of the author arguing that 5 rows are better than 3 :ROFLMAO:.
The actual fingering format is as above - stave & numbers, so you don't need to translate anything.

I've got a soft copy of the book, I believe it is long out of print and I can't imagine it is copyrighted, but I don't want to break any forum rules, so drop me a message if you're interested.
 
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