The art of fingering (PA)

[saundersbp]

Music written by accordionists that is meant to be played by accordion players

This is a genre I tend to give a wide berth to with the odd and notable exceptions: virtuosity on a particular instrument doesn't automatically correlate with great composition.

 

[saundersbp]

Do composers and arrangers write pieces so that there is a reasonable fingering for them ?
If they do why don,t they publish the fingering ?
If they don,t why don,t they say they have not considered the fingering ?
I always have to spend weeks playing through the piece, then weeks on sorting out the fingering, then have to re-learn the piece to suit the final fingering.

I love these questions because they are super intelligent and asking what most would be afraid to ask for fear of sounding daft. They are not daft at all!

It's a particular problem with older music (pre C19) where there are very different fingering systems underlying keyboard music which you won't know about unless you have been well taught or are really curious.

I have learnt most about fingering on the accordion from the kindness of a real pro ( the sort of person that can play something horribly hard live on radio 3) and studying exactly what they are doing with their hand to make it bomb proof under the most unforgiving of pressures. Equally learning some simple folk tunes and getting them up to crazy Irish speeds teaches you a thing or two.

Jazz piano is a great teacher as well. It's the exact opposite of 'do where the music takes you and hang loose', and the greats all have libraries of fingering patterns and solutions ingrained. Fingering for classical music seems totally spontaneous by comparison!

 

[JerryPH]

I love these questions because they are super intelligent and asking what most would be afraid to ask for fear of sounding daft. They are not daft at all!

Totally... err... totally NOT daft that is... lol.

 

[henry d]

Above a superficial level piano and PA keyboards have different demands on the fingers. Playing "Whiskey You're the Devil" for the dog (as I frequently do) works the same on the upright or the old but still serviceable Excelsior.

A couple of obvious examples of where the ways part; the piano requires a lot more care in finger attack on the keys- and frequently a lot more finger strength. The difference in key spacing is also significant. 19 3/4 inches on the my PA is 22 on the piano. The pinky not only reaches farther but has to have moxie when it gets there. You can get by most of the time on a PA with 1, 1 ,1 ,1 ,1 for a repeated note. On a piano at anything past andante 1,2,3,1,2 is pretty much de rigeur if you plan on sounding clean.

Synching key touches with bellows is something piano players have no experience with- and involves more that a little learning curve for decent piano players who assume they are already on top of things when they switch.

This is not intended to in any way "dis" the difficulty in playing a PA with finesse- one is not harder than the other- just different.

Excellence on anything is demanding- but there is surely room for the "Who ya gonna make happy with that thing? Me!" in the wide world of musicians.

Apologies for any typos- I have issues with seeing the monitor clearly these days.

 

[Tom]

Yup, excellence is overated, imho. Unless you mean excellence in creating an emotional reaction, be it your dog, your audience, or yourself. But as I have learned on this forum, some people have a profound emotional reaction to excellence (virtuosity). I don't get this, but I now believe it.

 

[JerryPH]

I think this is where my thought process seems to differ from many. I'll never be a world champion at my age, but that's never stopped me from looking for, or trying to find my own level of personal excellence. I'll never stop striving in anything I do, until they lay me down in the earth.

 

[Tom]

I think this is where my thought process seems to differ from many. I'll never be a world champion at my age, but that's never stopped me from looking for, or trying to find my own level of personal excellence. I'll never stop striving in anything I do, until they lay me down in the earth.

Well Jerry, you're one of the few who have both musicality and virtuosity (along with several others on here). I will never stop my own striving for improved musicality.

 

[JerryPH]

Well Jerry, you're one of the few who have both musicality and virtuosity (along with several others on here). I will never stop my own striving for improved musicality.

I used to be the stereotype of all technique and little musicality. I really think that musicality, to some people like me, comes harder than a 10 minute fast run, but a bit of maturing and life has helped me a bit in that area. It's always an uphill battle, though!

 

[henry d]

I used to be the stereotype of all technique and little musicality. I really think that musicality, to some people like me, comes harder than a 10 minute fast run, but a bit of maturing and life has helped me a bit in that area. It's always an uphill battle, though!

Probably most technically competent on the trumpet (65 years) - which I gave up as my embouchure gave out with encroaching physical decrepitude- followed by sax/flute/clarinet (45 years and then piano (63 years), I've over the past decade worked more and more on the accordion to the exclusion of the others.

At no point do I advocate for being satisfied with "good enough" in technique.* With two professional musicians in the immediate family back in NYC (trombone/ piano) and occasionally meeting their friends and acquaintences who are also professional musicians (primarily classical) I can say that, at least based upon that sample, no matter how proficient thay might get, they are all striving for that infinitessimal bit more- and I believe, always will be.

In my case there is no difficulty at all in seeing where there's huge room for improvement on any instrument I make noises on. Even the dog sometimes grouses...

I enjoy the challenge and the sometimes glacial progress. Taking up both C and B griff CBA recently to supplement the PA is proving to be a bit much- but having to concentrate is much of the reason I do it.

Per ardua ad cacaphony...

*But others may truly do just fine with the joy of music without obsessive attention to thissa and thatta and more power to them.

PS apologies for inevitable typos.

 

[hummingbird]

I'm very late to this conversation, but anything written by David Digiuseppe is extremely helpful. He has a great book on learning the bass side of the accordion. I was so impressed with his books that I found his email address and asked if he gave lessons, which he does via Zoom. A great teacher and very reasonably priced.

This may be a silly idea, but I though it might be fun and even of some use to collect some of the wisdom that the forum members have developed on the topic from the title. I'm looking not for concrete advice ("play this like that"), but for general principles. Much of this experienced players undoubtedly do almost subconsciously, but maybe with some reflection it can be brought to the form of explicit bits of advice anyway.
Fingering is obviously very important, and I don't think it can be learned from books, or at least that book hasn't been written yet. It is an art because various desirable goals often contradict each other, and everything depends on context.
I'll start myself perhaps, not because I think the following are indispensable pearls of wisdom, but just to illustrate what kind of thing I had in mind. To keep it simple, I'll just try to hit the right key at the right time (no considerations about legato playing for example).

(1) Get the job done in the most direct and simple way possible. Example: CDEFG could be played 12121, but 12345 seems preferable most of the time. For a slightly less silly example, 222222 rather than 123123 for CCCCCC works fine in slow to moderate tempo and saves mental energy. (The principle sounds trivial in this form, but I think for example Palmer-Hughes are guilty of a large number of transgressions.)

(2) Thumb on black keys is usually awkward.

(3) Avoid unnecessary risk. Larger intervals are safer when the thumb plays one of the notes. Example: CDEE' would be best played using the thumb on the E.

(4) The thumb is not the only finger that can be passed in chromatic scale like passages. Example: CDEFF#G can be played 123434.

(5) Related: Passing the thumb past 4 or 5 is awkward.

The question is actually perhaps more interesting for the CBA. I have three different methods books, and even on such a basic topic as scales, the three suggested fingerings have almost nothing in common.

 

[JerryPH]

*But others may truly do just fine with the joy of music without obsessive attention to thissa and thatta and more power to them.

An example that I can think of was when I was visiting in Europe a few years back, I saw people that played well... yet one of then played using only 3 out of 5 fingers. It sounded great, but obviously his efficiency was poor, not as smooth as he could have been and he limited himself to 3 finger chords at best. Evidently when fingering with 3 fingers one cannot do most music as well as with 5.

 

[hummingbird]

An example that I can think of was when I was visiting in Europe a few years back, I saw people that played well... yet one of then played using only 3 out of 5 fingers. It sounded great, but obviously his efficiency was poor, not as smooth as he could have been and he limited himself to 3 finger chords at best. Evidently when fingering with 3 fingers one cannot do most music as well as with 5.

So he wasn't missing two fingers, I take it? That's a very odd way to play.

 

[JerryPH]

So he wasn't missing two fingers, I take it? That's a very odd way to play.

Nope 5 healthy and strong fingers. Being self-taught, he started with his 3 most predominant fingers and never went beyond that over the years. It is a lot more common than one may be aware of.

 

[Dingo40]

We once had a saxophonist who had actually lost some fingers at his day job, but had just enough fingers left to play his saxophone!

 

[Ventura]

or his 3 row Bayan

 

[snavoyosky]

Do composers and arrangers write pieces so that there is a reasonable fingering for them ?
If they do why don,t they publish the fingering ?
If they don,t why don,t they say they have not considered the fingering ?
I always have to spend weeks playing through the piece, then weeks on sorting out the fingering, then have to re-learn the piece to suit the final fingering.

I have been an arranger/composer since about age 18 and a full member of the American Society of Music Arrangers and Composers in Los Angeles CA. On a normal sense of scoring a composer/arranger writes sounds and distinguishes what sound qualities he wants to hear and in what range. Yes, we are cognizant of the instrument's nuances and attempt to write around those known problems........but it primarily pertains to the skills of the instrumentalist(s) for whom he's writing if as an assignment work..........or a publishing company.
So the higher the skill level the less you will see of fingering. When I did Broadway musicals, none of that manuscript music had fingerings included for any instrument and of course we had to spontaneously sight-read everything including all the articulations...while keeping an open eye on the conductor.
Now that's a general overall synopsis to give some idea what we do or don't do and why. I don't know your situation for asking this question because fingering can be affected by your hand......your fingers........wrist.....because everyone does not have the same situations governing those things. I speak of finger and thumb crossovers and involving finger lengths. Are you aware that finger lengths can be bothersome? Some persons have their 4th finger longer than their index finger while other will have their 2nd finger longer then their 4th finger. And there are some who have all their fingers at the same length. Some have their thumb farther back their hand than other who have a shorth up further position. I was a longtime accordion/piano teacher and I've seen some unusual problems that I had to solve for students....like the one who came to me wanting to perform Bach works and the first knuckle tip of his 3rd finger was gone.
So you work around the problem...a problem that is yours and yours alone except with your teacher if you have one.
I located an article I wrote years ago pertaining to our discussion. I hope it will help you.

In past years I have addressed this issue of clean-even performing and how to achieve it realistically. Those who have been longtime members will recall my teaching process of “ repetition turns into reflex” “more fingers than notes” and other aids to impress upon the student that it takes a well developed hand to achieve and maintain that skill of clean-even performing regardless of articulation. It makes far more sense to spend the time with repetitive exercises to train the hand (fingers, wrist, arm) in the beginning in order to be able to function well, like in the case of…sight-reading. If one has to stop and train the hand to execute certain passages, then the training process will take much time to finally have that hand able and ready when needed. You have now turned the piece into an exercise and the time spent in this manner just might have you tired of it by the time you finally learned it.
An insurance company once advertised “The future belongs to those who prepare for it”. Truer words have not been stated. Well over a century ago, a prospective musician in Europe would find their training strictly in preparation of finger strength, suppleness, independence, etc., and music reading/keyboard learning…before…he would be given a composition to perform. His hands would be ready to address that music before him. It’s like any athlete working up to his performance skills…. before he actually performs.
Insofar as arpeggios and scales, the mere fact that these are compositional devices found in much music, stands to reason why they should be learned… practiced…and ‘played’ frequently (not practiced). In developing the hand, these just ‘add’ to that process. I have always had my curious, persistent, determined students work on such materials as Hanon 5 finger exercises, and Phillipp exercises, among others. These are all piano studies. Beware that they are NOT magic notes that will grant you immediate greatness. Once again, it’s not WHAT the exercise is but HOW you spend your time with these…to fully have that hand able and willing to execute any musical passage. Naturally I gave special consideration to the genetics of their entire hand and processed that to turn disadvantages into advantages. Such was the case of an excellent male student (adult) who had the first knuckle of his right forefinger removed. He performed his classical and semi-classical works with as much ease as if he had that fingertip.
One extra duty I gave my students was for them to spend this time on a piano… as the key resistance and depth helped tremendously. Of course… I had them use both hands in accordance with the music. To this day and especially before every job, I have prepared myself this way and also daily, for maintenance. It made no difference if I was doing jazz, commercial, show, or concert. A practice keyboard can work fine as long as the depth and resistance is there to strengthen those fingers…as you work.
Once my students spent the required time, and then used their ‘tuned’ hand on the short depth/easy resistance keyboard of their accordion, they found themselves capable and surprised at doing skills like sight-reading and those clean even runs. One other thing is that my students were initially trained in legato for that in itself will cause evenness of runs. Any other articulation is not a problem after that. Naturally there are certain techniques needed to execute each articulation.
I will answer questions you may have.
© 2009 S.J. Navoyosky
.

 

[colinm]

I have been an arranger/composer since about age 18 and a full member of the American Society of Music Arrangers and Composers in Los Angeles CA. On a normal sense of scoring a composer/arranger writes sounds and distinguishes what sound qualities he wants to hear and in what range. Yes, we are cognizant of the instrument's nuances and attempt to write around those known problems........but it primarily pertains to the skills of the instrumentalist(s) for whom he's writing if as an assignment work..........or a publishing company.
So the higher the skill level the less you will see of fingering. When I did Broadway musicals, none of that manuscript music had fingerings included for any instrument and of course we had to spontaneously sight-read everything including all the articulations...while keeping an open eye on the conductor.
Now that's a general overall synopsis to give some idea what we do or don't do and why. I don't know your situation for asking this question because fingering can be affected by your hand......your fingers........wrist.....because everyone does not have the same situations governing those things. I speak of finger and thumb crossovers and involving finger lengths. Are you aware that finger lengths can be bothersome? Some persons have their 4th finger longer than their index finger while other will have their 2nd finger longer then their 4th finger. And there are some who have all their fingers at the same length. Some have their thumb farther back their hand than other who have a shorth up further position. I was a longtime accordion/piano teacher and I've seen some unusual problems that I had to solve for students....like the one who came to me wanting to perform Bach works and the first knuckle tip of his 3rd finger was gone.
So you work around the problem...a problem that is yours and yours alone except with your teacher if you have one.
I located an article I wrote years ago pertaining to our discussion. I hope it will help you.

In past years I have addressed this issue of clean-even performing and how to achieve it realistically. Those who have been longtime members will recall my teaching process of “ repetition turns into reflex” “more fingers than notes” and other aids to impress upon the student that it takes a well developed hand to achieve and maintain that skill of clean-even performing regardless of articulation. It makes far more sense to spend the time with repetitive exercises to train the hand (fingers, wrist, arm) in the beginning in order to be able to function well, like in the case of…sight-reading. If one has to stop and train the hand to execute certain passages, then the training process will take much time to finally have that hand able and ready when needed. You have now turned the piece into an exercise and the time spent in this manner just might have you tired of it by the time you finally learned it.
An insurance company once advertised “The future belongs to those who prepare for it”. Truer words have not been stated. Well over a century ago, a prospective musician in Europe would find their training strictly in preparation of finger strength, suppleness, independence, etc., and music reading/keyboard learning…before…he would be given a composition to perform. His hands would be ready to address that music before him. It’s like any athlete working up to his performance skills…. before he actually performs.
Insofar as arpeggios and scales, the mere fact that these are compositional devices found in much music, stands to reason why they should be learned… practiced…and ‘played’ frequently (not practiced). In developing the hand, these just ‘add’ to that process. I have always had my curious, persistent, determined students work on such materials as Hanon 5 finger exercises, and Phillipp exercises, among others. These are all piano studies. Beware that they are NOT magic notes that will grant you immediate greatness. Once again, it’s not WHAT the exercise is but HOW you spend your time with these…to fully have that hand able and willing to execute any musical passage. Naturally I gave special consideration to the genetics of their entire hand and processed that to turn disadvantages into advantages. Such was the case of an excellent male student (adult) who had the first knuckle of his right forefinger removed. He performed his classical and semi-classical works with as much ease as if he had that fingertip.
One extra duty I gave my students was for them to spend this time on a piano… as the key resistance and depth helped tremendously. Of course… I had them use both hands in accordance with the music. To this day and especially before every job, I have prepared myself this way and also daily, for maintenance. It made no difference if I was doing jazz, commercial, show, or concert. A practice keyboard can work fine as long as the depth and resistance is there to strengthen those fingers…as you work.
Once my students spent the required time, and then used their ‘tuned’ hand on the short depth/easy resistance keyboard of their accordion, they found themselves capable and surprised at doing skills like sight-reading and those clean even runs. One other thing is that my students were initially trained in legato for that in itself will cause evenness of runs. Any other articulation is not a problem after that. Naturally there are certain techniques needed to execute each articulation.
I will answer questions you may have.
© 2009 S.J. Navoyosky
.

Navoyosky, thanks for your comprehensive answer,
I accept that not all composers will have composed so that it can be played on accordion.
However I can only play accordion arrangements from written music, frequently it is possible to buy this music and find the arranger playing the piece on a cd or youtube, so they have obviously sorted the fingering, and it would be easy for them to publish the fingering, I suppose my query is aimed at them.
I accept your

 

[snavoyosky]

Navoyosky, thanks for your comprehensive answer,
I accept that not all composers will have composed so that it can be played on accordion.
However I can only play accordion arrangements from written music, frequently it is possible to buy this music and find the arranger playing the piece on a cd or youtube, so they have obviously sorted the fingering, and it would be easy for them to publish the fingering, I suppose my query is aimed at them.
I accept your

Colinm--
You are very welcome. You mention accordion arrangements and this includes transcriptions which are really adaptations for the accordion based on the accordions range. Charles Magnante provided an array of fine publications for the piano accordion and took certain considerations at heart and that being its range. For instance when he transcribed Claire de Lune by Debussy he transposed it from then original Db major to C major for the sake of student playing ease. All of his works included denoted fingering. You may find some interesting things if you look over his abundance of works...compositional and otherwise.

 

[colinm]

Colinm--
You are very welcome. You mention accordion arrangements and this includes transcriptions which are really adaptations for the accordion based on the accordions range. Charles Magnante provided an array of fine publications for the piano accordion and took certain considerations at heart and that being its range. For instance when he transcribed Claire de Lune by Debussy he transposed it from then original Db major to C major for the sake of student playing ease. All of his works included denoted fingering. You may find some interesting things if you look over his abundance of works...compositional and otherwise.

Yes, I have some of his arrangements, they tend to be difficult but just playable after years of practice.

 

[Zevy]

This is a genre I tend to give a wide berth to with the odd and notable exceptions: virtuosity on a particular instrument doesn't automatically correlate with great composition.

True, there are some really good ones. Take John Gart - his music is great and it fits the instrument like a glove.